Fast Break: Expanding the Circle – Creating Space for Women in Business

Becky Menefee

Welcome to Fast Break. My name is Becky Menefee and I have the great honor of representing M3, alongside your faithful host in my esteem colleague Matt Cranney. March is Women’s HERstory Month and I thought what better way to celebrate than to hijack the podcast?

So today, we’re celebrating International Women’s Day recognized on March 8, by talking to two amazing women who have not only achieved success in their careers but have also helped countless others along the way.

In a world where women still face significant hurdles in the workplace, it’s important to recognize and celebrate the achievements of those who have broken through barriers.

According to a 2023 report by the World Economic Forum, it will take another 132 years to close the global gender gap. And a 2022 study by leanin.org and McKinsey & Company found that for every 100 men promoted to manager, only 87 women are promoted.

Today, I’m honored to welcome two incredible guests, colleagues and women who I am fortunate enough to call friends. Coreen Dicus-Johnson, President and CEO of Network Health and Heather Dunn, Senior Vice President and CFO for West Bend Insurance Company.

Coreen and Heather, welcome to Fast Break.

01:20 Coreen Dicus-Johnson Heather Dunn

Thanks Becky. Thank you.

01:20 Becky Menefee

Well, let’s jump right in, shall we? I want to give each of you a chance to introduce yourselves and just tell us a little bit about your journeys that led you to the work you’re doing today. Coreen, do you mind jumping in?

01:32 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

Sure. I am an attorney by training. I like to say that I’m a recovering lawyer, no disrespect to my attorney colleagues out there. But I got to health care in a really interesting way. I was volunteering as a law clerk at the city attorney’s office. And got exposed to one of the city attorneys whose wife was Deputy general counsel for Blue Cross and Blue Shield, well, about 30 years ago. And I thought I was going to be pursuing a career in litigation, mostly in real estate. I learned about the amazing and always changing world of healthcare and started my career as a as a lawyer for the Blues.

I worked for Wheaton Franciscan Healthcare in many different roles, as a non-lawyer positions. And my final role before coming to Network Health was a market president at three hospitals, medical group responsible for that area.

And I’m in my perfect place because I was able to take all of the work that I learned on the insurance carrier side. All of the great experiences from working in a provider organization to now lead a provider-owned health insurance company. What that means is that, we’re not owned by shareholders. Our shareholder if you will, our stakeholder is we is Froedtert ThedaCare and I get to partner with physicians all the time and bring excellent experiences to our members and get to live out a world of mission vision and values in this organization. And I’m on my perfect spot, having a blast doing it.

03:15 Becky Menefee

I love that. Perfect Place. I wrote that down as such a good phrase. It’s a good place to be Heather, same question to you.

03:22 Heather Dunn

Yeah. Thank you. I would say similarly, I’m in a great place. I’ve been at West Bend for over 17 years, and I think my recovery is I’m actually a recovering auditor, so I started eight years in the audit profession for UI and luckily I audited insurance companies. So I kind of learned that industry right when going in.

And that’s actually because I failed as an actuary, I went to school as a math and business double major. I wanted to be an actuary. Took my first exam. Failed miserably and realized I cannot do this for 10 years.

So then I I decided to get my masters in accounting, so then I could kind of switch and use the bit more business side of that to do accounting and get my CPA. My father was an accountant, so I think I bucked that for a long time, not wanting to necessarily have to live and die by the tax seasons of April 15^th.

Luckily, I’m an accountant who doesn’t do really do taxes. I’m more on the business operations strategy side, so it’s been really fun to be at West Bend where we also are owned by our policyholders. I don’t have the stress of the stock public company facing world.

But I work with some amazing colleagues. Really excited to be in Wisconsin and doing some great things for the community.

04:27 Becky Menefee

Coreen, coming back to you. What are you most passionate about the work that you do?

04:32 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

So I’d say first and foremost is bringing the mission of building healthy and strong communities to life. And what I mean by that is, and Heather talked about it, its community.

And so when we talk about everything that we do here at Network Health, we put them our members at the center of that. And by going out into the community and making things better, whether it, you know, volunteering for Habitat for Humanity, doing work with Feeding America, we’re connecting with our members and we truly are bringing that mission to life. It’s everything that we do.

I would say the second thing ’cause, I think it drives the first is, mentoring and sponsoring young leaders. That’s the other passion. Because I stand on the shoulders of the amazing leaders that came before me. And I am a product of that and I want to make sure that others will be able to stand on my shoulders and that takes mentoring and sponsorship to do that.

05:33 Becky Menefee

Heather, what about you? What brings you the most passion in in your day-to-day work?

05:37 Heather Dunn

Yeah. I think one of the best things about my current role that I wasn’t expecting is I kind of thought I’d be more back office, you know, looking at the spreadsheets on the backside. And not maybe as engaged on the front side of the house as because most CFOs really aren’t.

Right when I got here right away, I started having to work or choosing to work with our agents. So, Becky, you and I know each other because of that capability that I’m able to talk to our agents that sell our business on a pretty regular basis. And I think it just helps bring everything full circle for me on the work I do on the frontend, that eventually gets to the back end and the boring stuff of the numbers.

It’s exciting to hear I have a billing team as well that talks to our policyholders on the payment side and it’s just really fun to see all those things kind of click together and have everybody working in the same fun direction. I’m pretty lucky that it’s kind of come full circle in a lot of ways.

06:26 Becky Menefee

Hasn’t been quite the role of just what you’ve always assumed as CFO would be right looking behind spreadsheets and being behind a computer all day.

06:29 Heather Dunn

Yeah, not what people would think.

06:36 Becky Menefee

Yeah, Coreen, what are some of the biggest challenges you face as a female leader and how did you overcome them?

06:43 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

So, I chose professions that are pretty male dominated to begin with, right? So, and what I learned is that there’s a lot of business and a lot of strategy and a lot of connections that are made in places, well, quite frankly, that females are not invited to. And it’s because they’re male locker rooms and things of that nature. I, you know, I’ve accepted it.

So what I had to figure out is where could I make room to come in in my own way? Not necessarily be trying to be one of the guys, but to create common space of commonality that I could connect with them.

And one of the things that I observed really early on that I incorporated is that when men come into the room they talk, they want to get to know you. They want to size you up for whatever reason. What it is there’s conversations. What I noticed early on is that women, we are task oriented, we are results oriented. Not to say that men aren’t, but we have a tendency to walk into a room and get right to work.

And what I wanted to do was. Okay, there’s a way to kind of balance both of those things where, you know, I’m a generally chatty Kathy networking kind of gal anyway, so it met that, you know, kind of who I am, but to do that as well and to find those things of commonality so that I could create spaces where I could be in the room where those types of relationships are being built, but in doing it in a way where I had a voice.

And whether it’s you know, I was reading ESPN magazine to understand the little bit I could understand from all of the sports stuff, so you get the opportunity to open the door towards family discussions. What if people like to do? I enjoy nice wine restaurants and finding those things that that the my male colleagues at the time and now you know in the in leadership roles where we could connect in a different way. And quite frankly I think it has been pretty successful.

08:40 Becky Menefee

Me. I love that so much Coreen. it resonates with me in so many different ways and I I’ve been in so many circles where you get the impression that people wonder if we’re just hanging out in circles to be with the guys.

It’s more about being more business is happening and bringing your authentic self at the same way and finding making spaces. Well said I love that. Making space for both.

09:02 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

Yes, they can Co-exist and they do. You know, you just figure it out for yourself.

09:09 Becky Menefee

Maybe a little shift here for you, Heather. Striving for an integrated life or a sense of wholeness. I think some words, a word that a lot of people like to use is ‘balance’. I struggle a little bit with that one. But it’s not always easy, right.

So particularly when you’re faced with the demands of a challenging career such as yours, what are some of the biggest challenges you’ve encountered in trying to achieve this, and how have you navigated those challenges?

09:33 Heather Dunn

Yeah, it’s funny because I used to not like really let that conversation be a conversation. You know? It’s like, you know, I’m just gonna do what I need to do, and I’m not gonna stress myself out about is it the perfect balance? It not the perfect balance?

But I’ve learned probably more recently like. The balance does change over your career, like there were times where I was completely all-in to every networking event that I was asked to go to every board I was asked to join. You know, it was what I thought I had to do, and I did. And then you kind of get to that point where you’re like, oh, I’m doing too much and my family life is suffering or I’m missing out on too many kids things.

So I have learned that you know, you kind of have to figure out like is your balance always the way that you want it to be or do you need to make some shifts? And recently I’ve made a shift that, you know, my kids are now almost. I have an eighth grader, sophomore and a senior in high school. I’m getting to the point that their really crazy years are definitely behind me.

But now it’s a little bit more choice about like, well, I don’t have to go to that thing, but I feel like I should. I have to kind of reframe it with like I get to go to things versus I have to go to things. To kind of balance out, you know, how much of a family life am I going to do? Much of work life am I going to do?

So I don’t know. I feel like for all of us, everybody wants the perfect answer if it’s 20% this and 32% that. And it changes, it just is going to change like you kind of said you have a little bit of a pause of using the word.

I just think it’s like everybody struggles with it. It’s not just a female thing. It’s everybody is probably struggling with it. Let’s just acknowledge it’s a struggle and there’s nothing perfect about it. We figured out as we go.

11:01 Becky Menefee

I love that so much and I love because I do feel like we put a little bit of extra pressure on ourselves to maybe not speak in or lean into that right, or if I have to leave to go do this, maybe there’s a perception of not being as committed. And I think some those areas have changed a little bit.

I actually really love the idea of the shift to right we as we evolve and grow in our careers and in our lives, our priorities just in general shift, right. So where do you spend that time?

Do you have any recommendations or thoughts that you know companies might consider to help create space for employees to feel okay to explore that balance in a meaningful way?

11:36 Heather Dunn

The conversation is so much more open now, about like with hybrid. Like at West Bend were more of a in more than out cultures. Want people kind of here three days a week and at home two days is totally fine.

But I always used to say when we were talking about flexibility is that if you get flexibility, it doesn’t always mean it’s predictability. There’s a difference that if you want to be flexible, you also can’t expect that it’s always one way. It kind of has to be a two-way street.

And I think it’s just gotten so much better that everybody’s kind of living that, they enjoy it. They see how it can work to be flexible. That it’s not this big scary thing that we kind of have to secretly work out, you know, in the shadows.

It’s way more open here, I know that we’re talking about like, oh, yeah, you make sure you go do that thing, but guess what? Tuesday morning, we all got to be here ready to go, you know, for this specific thing.

It’s a definite balance and I think as a leadership team, I know we’re also weighing like the best value of the time we are spending together. So we’re even making it now with hybrid three days in, but make sure that your teams are focused on two of those days being days that you are actually all here together. Because that’s really the magic sauce of being in. It’s not just to sit in a desk when you could be sitting at home getting the same work done.

So yeah, I think flexibility is always going to be now a pretty open piece of our conversation and we’re figuring out different strategies that are evolving too and some work, some don’t. Again, we’ll adapt.

12:54 Becky Menefee

Coreen, let’s come back to you. What advice do you have for young women who are just starting their careers?

13:03 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

Say this if you are going to pursue a partner, pick a good one. What I mean by that is whoever you bring into your personal life, you need to make sure that this is a person who is supporting your choices, building you up and strengthening you.

I would say that, and you know some people want to be individual contributors. Some people want to rise up through the ranks, whatever it is. But you know when we talk about what Heather was talking about, balance and everything, like all of that, you cannot have balance in one place without it being in the other.

So seeking that out so I know it’s probably maybe a non-traditional response. That my response in terms of getting the right partner, but I can tell you that I would never have been able to accomplish the things in my career, but for the fact that I had an amazing partner. My husband is just amazing, and I have a child and who’s now grown up and such and would not have been able to lean in to the opportunities that I wanted to.

So, the second one, if you pick the right balance in terms of your partner, then you have the, you have the opportunity, you’ll have the support to lean in. Flexibility in all of and balance comes in maybe not predictable points. I’d love that statement, Heather. But maybe when those opportunities present themselves, you have the capacity to be able to lean in hard, be courageous, and work hard in those roles, because then that opens up additional opportunities.

But too many times, I’ve talked to women and to men. So, it’s not a gender issue. It’s, no, I couldn’t do that because, I wouldn’t be able to do XY and Z or I don’t have the support I need. Thinking about your home life is just as important about thinking about your work life, because you need to be successful in both.

14:57 Becky Menefee

Mm hmm. Well said. That whole total self. I love that. What are some of the most important lessons you’ve learned throughout your career?

15:05 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

The first one would be relationship management. You know, one of the things that I’ve said as I’ve recruited people into a culture, we can’t do this work alone. Every job is a team sport and what that means is that we need to work in relation with others. And so managing those relationships. And I’ve said this too, if you’ve got people on your team that don’t have good relationship management skills that they can’t be on the team. You will always be off centered. So, manage relationship.

Trust your instincts. Every time that I have, I have talked myself out of what my instincts told me to do. It’s been a mistake. I ask for forgiveness, not permission. That’s another one.

And then I think the last one is, focus on winning the war, not the battle. And it’s just kind of that system thinking holistic approach. And how that what I mean by that in practice is sometimes, you know, when you’re negotiating on your working on something, there’s something that the other side needs. And you might just need to give them that so that you can build the credibility, the relationship, to get to the bigger, the bigger place, the bigger reward, if you will.

And maybe war is too negative. But the point is big picture thinking and when I’ve done that, when I’ve checked my ego at the door and say Coreen, just suck it up. Do this, don’t fight over this small thing because the bigger prize is awaiting you. I have been rewarded over and over again as a result.

16:35 Becky Menefee

I love that so much. The hill you want to die on, right? Are you going to go? How far do you want to go with that.  

16:41 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

By the way, it works for raising children, too.

16:42 Becky Menefee

It does. It really does. So true. Alright. Heather, how do you think we can create a more inclusive and equitable workplace for all?

16:53 Heather Dunn

Well, I think we’re kind of realizing it is about inclusion.  Like that is the word that should stick and is sticking and creating that culture where everybody feels like they can speak and contribute is kind of the basis of the relationship side of what Coreen is talking about.

I mean, it’s hard. I’ve been at one place for 17 years. I feel like it’s always kind of been here, so we haven’t had to struggle with figuring that out and creating it. One of the reasons we’re a best workplace.

So I don’t know the struggles that are out there when people aren’t included, right? I feel like it can it. It seems like it can be such a natural thing, but yet people are experiencing it’s not. So I don’t know that I have the answers there, but I think it is something we got to keep talking about and strategize with others on. Are there best practices? Are there conversations we need to have or not having?

But I think it is getting. I mean, it feels like it’s getting better. I think the inclusion is gonna take still take some time, but it’s there’s optimism there.

17:44 Becky Menefee

Coreen, you’ve had a variety of different roles, different organizations. You’ve seen a lot of things in your tenure. Maybe it’s a good question for you as well, how do you think we can create a more inclusive and equitable workplace for all?

17:58 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

Everything starts at home and my mom used to have a saying let Coreen make the circle bigger. And what I mean by that is it again, this is like, you know, mistress of the obvious here. When I say get more people involved in whatever it is that you’re trying to either solve for or whatever result you’re trying to achieve. I have just naturally, I’m oldest of 11 children, so I’m used to big circles so this isn’t, this is natural for me.

But I would say this that what I also find is that when you do make that circle bigger, when you’re inviting more people in an inclusiveness, yes, we talk about it in terms of kind of diversity. You know, as in terms of kind of race and gender and everything.

But sometimes, let’s think simply departments and when I start to think about it and we and we start to build that muscle of inviting others in and making that circle bigger. It’s natural for us to look and do it in other places and we start at home. We start at work here, right?

And that is when you’re working on something, inviting others, others in at the table.

I do this a lot because, not everybody feels like they that they want to talk. And so I’ll say, you know what, Becky? I’ve been watching you. I feel like you have something you need to say. I will really interested in what you have. I’ve been and what I’ve just given you permission to be, and I’ve invited you so that inclusion in to share.

And sometimes you have to kind do that. You have to know the people. But I’m not shy. I’ll do it with even people I don’t know, but that’s a way to do it. Then I have a little tip. It’s not of my making. It was something that I read in a book, Joe Sweeney, a local executive here that, that taught me this. When you’re at a place where you’re networking and you want to create inclusion, pretend that you’re the host of the party and that you’re introducing people to each other, and it’s a natural way to make that circle bigger.

And I do this and it’s so much fun to be able to connect people in that regard. And if we practice that word like, this is my party. Hi. Heather. I want you to meet me, Becky. You guys know each other? No you don’t. And then you just literally and you watch the circle become bigger. And I’ve actually had people ask me, oh, are you one of the organizers. No, I’m not the organizer, but I’m just pretending to be one today.

20:32 Becky Menefee

Because your hors d’oeuvres are fabulous. Oh my gosh. Coreen, I’ve seen you live that out. I’ve seen that in action.

20:39 Heather Dunn

 I have too. She’s a connector.

20:40 Becky Menefee

Thank you so much, ladies. Alright, now it’s time for a little fun. This is my favorite part of the podcast. We’re going to rapid fire a few questions, and just off the fly. We’ll see what you got. Alright, we’ll do Coreen, then Heather, for each of the questions. So let’s start with your favorite book that you’ve read or if you’re an audiobook listener, listen to in the last twelve months.

21:04 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

David and Goliath. Malcolm Gladwell. Love him.

21:05 Heather Dunn

I love him too.

21:08 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

I’m reading Tracking the Strangers right now, which is another great book.

21:11 Heather Dunn

I just finished that one as well. And his Revenge of the Tipping Point is on my desk next. Yeah, he’s a good author.

21:21 Becky Menefee

Heather.

21:22 Heather Dunn

Revisionist History by Malcolm Gladwell. He kind of goes back in time and looks at historic events. Think we knew what they really. And then he kind of steps back and says, well, were they really that way?

That way I would say podcast I like listening the business. So Business Movers is another one I listen to where it talks about the history of a company from beginning till today.

21:41 Becky Menefee

Coreen, she shifted a little bit to podcast. Is there a particular podcast that you like to listen to and would recommend?

21:47 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

No, I’m not a podcast person, but I am I’m studying French. I’ve been studying French for the last three years and so every moment that I’m not, you know, working or doing something, not every moment, but a lot of it. That’s my go to thing is either Duolingo, or some of the en ligne français. So yeah, that’s what I’m working on.

22:08 Becky Menefee

So fancy. All right, complete the sentence, leadership is, Coreen.

22:12 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

Service.

22:16 Becky Menefee

Service. Heather?

22:18 Heather Dunn

I don’t know. Right now I feel like it’s fun.  We have a lot of good stuff going on. People think leadership can be so scary, but you know it can be a lot of fun too.

22:25 Becky Menefee

The most impactful piece of coaching advice you’ve ever received, Coreen.

22:30 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

Oh this was one not too long ago. Coreen, not everyone has had the same experiences that you have. Make sure you go and bring them along the journey to get to where they where you want them to be.

22:42 Becky Menefee

That is impactful. Heather, what about you?

22:46 Heather Dunn

I don’t know if it’s advice, but it’s something I read that I  often wind up referencing and so I was a math major, right? When I saw Venn diagram on a LinkedIn post, once upon a time Iwas like, oh, let’s read this article. It was actually by the CEO, Jeff Weiner.

He talked about people I like to work with. And it talked about, you know, the three circles. And of course in the middle is the sweet spot. So the one circle was think big. So of course, you know, we like people that tend to think big. The second circle was get stuff done, only it was the swear word. And then the other circle was have fun. And I think we’ve we probably have worked with people who have had two of those three circles or one of those three circles. But when you do find that sweet spot of all three of those circles, I think that’s when we love work. And love the people we are working with.

I try and bring, you know, my own way to my teams, but I also find when we’re hiring or we’re thinking about, you know, next moves, whatever that is. I think those circles always kind of resonate for me in a leadership mindset.

23:43 Becky Menefee

Your can’t live without it app on your phone.

23:46 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

Mine is so boring. It’s the calculator.

23:49 Heather Dunn

I’m a peloton.  Sorry, I cut in there, so I like my workouts in the morning and keeping me on task, but it’s kind of a boring app.

23:56 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

But I’m like I need that calculator. It’s unbelievable how much, I wish I could do, you probably this stuff in your head.

24:04 Heather Dunn

No, I’m a big calculator girl.

24:07 Becky Menefee

Mine might have been maps, so it’s OK.

24:10 Heather Dunn

Yeah, there you go.

24:12 Becky Menefee

Oh goodness. Alright, Coreen, last thing you that you did that truly scared you.

24:17 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

I’m doing something right now. That’s pretty scary because it’s so new and really no one has been able to accomplish it. I’m working with our team to create a dental medical integration that literally reconnects the mouth to the rest of the body for insurance purposes.

24:34 Becky Menefee

As it should be.

24:34 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

And you know, this is, I’m so excited about it, but it’s a big leap. Because, like I said, it hasn’t been done before. We’re a, you know, a Regional Health plan and we’re going to take a big leap. It’s the right work to do. And so while I’m afraid, I’m more afraid of not doing the right thing in which this is. And so I’m doing it.

25:00 Becky Menefee

That’s awesome. What about you, Heather?

25:01Heather Dunn

That’s very inspiring. I don’t know that I have one as good as that, but I did just go through a pretty big transition with our billing team. It was one of those where we decided to charge customers credit card fees. Which people hate. But the premise of it was if, like the cost just have been increasing so much and instead of forcing us to charge all customers for credit card fees, I wanted to be able to give customers choice, and maybe change behavior in the process that why are any of us paying some of these fees and we don’t have to.

So we launched that a couple months ago and we knew some feedback wasn’t going to be great. But I think it’s going to be meaningful to the team. Hopefully our customers sort of understand it’s meaningful to them too.

Yeah. Making big changes like that can be scary, but I think we had the right amount of homework we did and the team behind it, so.

25:45 Becky Menefee

You ended up with a good reward, hopefully at the end there.

25:50 Heather Dunn

It is, yeah.

25:52 Becky Menefee

Alright, if you had to give a Ted talk, what would the title be, Coreen?

25:56 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

Mastering the corporate jungle gym. I’m waiting for Ted to call me.

26:02 Becky Menefee

How about you Heather?

26:04 Heather Dunn

So I’m actually I’m a singer like on the side, so I always feel like there’s something that I should talk about how like arts are really important, in a leadership setting as well. So maybe in my Ted talk will be something about how, you know, that’s helped me and I hope it continues to help others.

26:22 Becky Menefee

I love that.

26:22 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

I would go to that Heather. I’m a firm believer in how the arts help our brains, the creativity. It’s unbelievable what it does to our brain and lights it up in ways that so. No, that’s awesome.

26:35 Becky Menefee

Well, Heather and Coreen as we wrap up today, if any of our audience wants to know more about each of you and how they might even connect with you, where might they find you?

26:45 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

LinkedIn for me.

26:45 Heather Dunn

Me too.

26:45 Becky Menefee

Thank you both so much for being willing to join us today in your busy schedules and sharing a little bit of your wisdom and insights with our audience. It’s been a true honor to have you here, and we really, truly appreciate it.

26:57 Coreen Dicus-Johnson

It was a lot of fun.

26:58 Heather Dunn

Yes, thank you.

This has been Fast Break brought to you by M3 Elevate. I’m your host, Matt Cranney.  Thank you for joining me.

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